Running Isn’t Therapy: Katharina Hartmuth on Healing from Trauma and Finding Joy in the Mountains

What does it really take to endure when the air thins, the quads burn, and doubt gets loud? We sit down with ultrarunner Katharina Hartmuth—Hardrock and UTMB podium finisher and winner of the 330 km Tor des Géants—to unpack the mental game of mountain ultras and the deeper work that fuels lasting resilience. From long stretches above 12,000 feet to the rare quiet of a small, devoted race community, Katharina explains why Hardrock feels both brutal and beautiful—and why she keeps coming back.

Katharina is candid about the lows: altitude-driven vision issues, bonks that won’t quit, and the storm-lashed nights where every step is a question. Her toolkit blends practical strategy and inner steadiness—separating pain from harm, checking ego at the door, and letting joy lead and metrics follow. We go further into healing, where she draws a firm line: running is therapeutic, but it isn’t therapy. Years of psychotherapy widened her window of tolerance, rebuilt trust, and turned setbacks into learning. We explore stigma, access, and the biology of stress, showing why mental health care deserves the same respect as injury rehab.

Injuries have tested her in recent years: a car accident, knee surgery, a last-minute bone bruise, and a nagging foot issue. Instead of spiraling, Katharina has learned to reframe recovery as training for patience, leaned on cross-training and strength, and practiced self-kindness that maintains her sense of worth and identity. She also shares how she’s reshaping life for sustainability—creating more rest, more nature, and taking a bold step to focus on running full-time.

If you’re curious about the psychology of endurance, the Hardrock culture, or how therapy and trail running can work together to heal, this conversation is your map. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs encouragement today, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. What hard thing you’re ready to try next?

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:06 What Makes Hardrock Different
• 4:06 Solitude, Community, And The Course
• 7:11 Lows, Vision Issues, And Altitude
• 10:39 Pain, Mindset, And Mental Strength
• 14:16 Joy As Fuel And Intrinsic Motivation
• 18:23 Mountains As Healing And Self-Trust
• 22:32 Connection, Isolation, And Belonging
• 26:15 Why Running Isn’t Therapy
• 30:12 Stigma, Access, And Finding Help
• 35:05 The Power Of Therapeutic Relationship
• 40:45 Setbacks, Injury, And Resilience
• 46:05 Reframing Recovery And Patience
• 51:00 Risk, Trying Hard Things, And Fear
• 56:05 Choosing Running Full-Time
• 1:01:30 Rest, Space, And Sustainable Life
• 1:05:01 Nature As Ease And Grounding
• 1:09:20 Follow Katharina And Season Plans
• 1:12:20 Closing Gratitude And Listener CTA

Transcript

Lisa Danylchuk: 0:03

Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast. Today our guest is Katharina Hartmuth, an ultrarunner who has learned to invest in her mind just as much as her muscles. Originally from Germany and now living in Switzerland, Katerina has a quiet determination that shines through in each race she runs. She's the winner of the legendary Tour de Geants 330-kilometer race and has stood on the podium at both Ultra Trail Mont Blanc, UTMB, and the Hard Rock 100 multiple times. What's just as remarkable though is how she shows up with humility, joy, and a deep respect for the mountains and the people around her. Today, we talk about healing on and off the trail, and Katerina shares the value she's found in psychotherapy to help her address experiences of trauma. Katerina reminds us that endurance isn't just about pushing through pain, it's about connection, compassion, and being fully authentic to our deepest sense of self each step of the way. I feel lucky to have seen Katerina out on the trail running and crossing those finish lines, and even more so to have this chat with her here today. Please join me in welcoming Katharina Hartmuth to the show.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:25

I think some people who are listening are in the ultraspace and know you well. Some folks are yogis, mental health professionals, other wellness providers, and might not know of your beautiful beastliness, as I was just calling it. You're such an inspiration and just we've met briefly at races. I don't expect you to remember. And uh you're always just so warm and kind too. And there's something really beautiful about that. So I want to kind of dig into some different things, the documentary that came out about you recently, and yeah, just share that with folks today.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:59

Yeah, thank you so much. I'm uh yeah, happy to talk to you and thanks so much for the invitation.

Lisa Danylchuk: 2:04

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 2:05

Happy to be here.

Lisa Danylchuk: 2:06

Yes. So I feel like this is such a selfish question. But as someone who's never run hard rock and would love to, but might never, I mean, there's a lot of us out there who would love to, but just might never do it for a whole host of reasons, right? It's a hard race to get into. It takes a lot of training and fitness and probably gifts from the universe, right? To get to the start line. So what's it like to be out there at like 15,000 plus feet for a hundred miles on the trail? What is that particular race like for you?

Katharina Hartmuth: 2:43

Uh well, first of all, it's hard.

Lisa Danylchuk: 2:46

Yeah, right.

Katharina Hartmuth: 2:48

It's supposed to be. Yeah. Um yeah, it's it's it's just a tough race. I mean, just the altitude and being at altitude like for so long, and like some stretches of the race are just like at 12,000 feet and longer for like many, many hours without ever going like lower. So yeah, it's I think the altitude is just what ultimately makes it so different, uh difficult. Yeah, even without the altitude, it would be a difficult race. I mean, there's a lot of climbing, it's still 100 miles, like there is difficult technical sections in the race. But I think, yeah, for me, like the ultimate factor, and that also, at least for me, it makes it different from the races I usually do in Europe, is just the altitude. Yeah, and just yeah, having less air.

Lisa Danylchuk: 3:37

Hi up there. It makes me think it's like a spiritual experience, just being that high in the air, you know, you're like so in the mountains. And so I think that's part of my personal longing for it. Maybe one day. Maybe one day. We'll just put it up there. Maybe one day it'll come together. Can you share some favorite moments from that particular race?

Katharina Hartmuth: 3:58

Well, I think the cool thing with hardware is certain like one thing I really like is that it's a really small race. I mean, it yeah, it's really popular, but because there is only so few people who are allowed to run it each year, it well, there certainly is like a buzz at the start and before the race and everything. But what I really like is that you are out there basically on your own, like after a few hours, the field is so stretched, which is just it makes it feel less like a race. Like you're just like running on your own through this beautiful nature, and actually because it is so remote, like you don't even yeah, you really don't think about being in a race apart from like you know, running through a few towns that are along the way and like yeah, being at the aid station, which I really enjoy because yeah, one reason why I run is just that I love being in the mountains, and I also really love being in the mountains on my own. Yeah, just do my own thing. And yeah, I mean, there is big, big races where you never really have that alone time. So that's something I definitely really like about hard rock, but on the other side, the actually yeah, the aspect of the community is also something that that draws me towards the race. It's a very special community, especially because there is so many people who have been connected to the race for decades. Yeah, they have met all their friends at the race, and they um yeah, they have the race has been such an important part of their life. And when you talk to these to these people and they are, you know, you meet them at date stations and around the race. It's just it's cool to see how something simple like a race can connect people in a very special way, in a very special way, and to experience that and also like their passion for the race and for the place there and just for running in general, yeah, that's just something unique, and it's really just a really nice atmosphere because everybody who is there, from the volunteers to the yeah, the veterans and the race organizers, they live for that race. And yeah, that's I think that's something really special. And um, yeah, it's it's certainly yeah, part from the running in the nature, the community is just such a such an important part of my rookie.

Lisa Danylchuk: 6:20

It's so beautiful, and I I resonate so much with what you're saying because I got drawn towards ultra running because I was like, I just get to be in the mountains. Somebody picked the trail, they put flags out for me, there's snacks, there's people at the end. It's like it's like a long all day, or depending on the distance, it's a long hike that's like fully supported and celebrated. I'm like, sign me up, right? And the community aspect of that, you know, I'll just share briefly. I knew about hard rock, but I watched the live coverage in 2023 when my daughter was what, two, three months old, and I was sitting there nursing her in the chair, watching on the TV the whole thing, right? And then this was the summer that Courtney DeWalter was doing her triple crown, right? So I watched all of those. And then lo and behold, the following year, we just ended up, I didn't put it together until the end of that summer. I was like, oh, we ended up going to all of those races. Once my daughter turned one, we went to Western states as we normally do. We live in California. We went to Hard Rock for the first time in 2024 when you were running it and cheered for you. And then we went to UTMB that year too. And same thing last year. It's like once we got a taste of it, we weren't planning to go this year, but it got close and we were like, oh, we just gotta be there. Like it's such a great energy. And like you said, it's the community and it's small, there's a buzz, there's so much love and appreciation of the mountains. And I think of the sport. And like you said, it's hard. And I think there's a real appreciation and celebration of that, and even the vulnerability in it. Cause I I mean, I've heard a lot of people say, I've always said this like, I don't know if I'm gonna do a long race, if I'm gonna finish or not. Like you really put yourself out there when you do things like this. And so it's been such a joy just to be a part of that and you know, go to Uray or tell your ride and cheer at the finish line and you know, feel like you could sort of participate with people who are out there in the field. So let's talk a little bit about the hard moments. Like it could be hard rock or just in general in trail running. What would you say are some of the most challenging moments for you out there?

Katharina Hartmuth: 8:23

Well, I would well, first of all, I would say that there is there is always challenging moments in each race that I do because the races that I do are so long usually. So it's almost impossible to have a race that is like more than 15 hours long without experiencing a low. Yeah. Um, but I I don't think it's something bad. I mean, it's just something you need to be prepared for. That's you know, at some point something will happen. And actually, I think it's quite diverse what could happen. And especially in hard rock, I experienced issues that I hadn't experienced in that way before. So I think my biggest challenge with hard rock, like the two hard rocks I've done, uh, is certainly my eye pro like my vision issues.

Lisa Danylchuk: 9:08

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 9:09

Doing both hard rocks I experienced that after a certain amount of time, I just I struggled to see clearly. I lost my vision like partially, and actually in this year's race, I lost it completely at some point. So that was certainly a challenge that I'm not used to that much. But that is for me, it's yeah, specific for our hard work, and I think it is because of the altitude. Yeah, like something is not working well with my eyes when I work hard for a long time at altitude, and that's why I'm currently looking at it with my ophthalmologist and some experts for altitude to find solutions in future races. But I would say, apart from that, like the classic problems doing along the race for me is well, first of all, anything that is linked to nutrition, yeah, stomach issues, not being able to eat or to drink, and then of course, you you know lose your energies, and yeah, that's that's a big issue. I had that last year during hard work that I also I think the altitude makes it even harder to eat. So I couldn't eat for a very long time, and then I just bonked like crazy. And I once I was so low on energy, it was even harder to get back to eating. So I think that's something that is that can affect your race a lot. But of course, it's also it's also like just pain, you know, your muscles will hurt at some point, no matter how well trained you are. Um, and for example, doing UTMB this year, I think because of the cold weather there, I had it was epic that cold weather there. It was like the most epic conditions ever. Like I've I've like last year at Tour de Gion, we already had like really bad weather, but and I was like, okay, I think I'm prepared to run in the rain, but that was not just rain. Yeah, it was crazy. It's like, yeah, I I mean I was prepared to run in the rain for a long time, but I was not prepared to run in a shower for five hours on a e-book.

Lisa Danylchuk: 11:11

In your interview at the end, I did I didn't know I needed to bring my bathing suit, right?

Katharina Hartmuth: 11:15

Yeah, I should actually I should have brought a wetsuit.

Lisa Danylchuk: 11:18

Yeah, yeah, right.

Katharina Hartmuth: 11:20

Well, and and then I just I had some problems with my quads like pretty early on in the race, like after 50 miles already. And man, it was so painful. But I knew that I wasn't injured. I was just like, well, I guess just my muscles hurt, and that was really hard. And yeah, I think all these little things that usually the problem at some point is not your body, it's like what your mind does with it. So if my legs hurt, it's not my legs that decide that I cannot run anymore, but it's my mind that makes me question if I can do this and if it is the right thing. And yeah, I mean, pain is not it's nothing nice. Well, I mean, we do this and we are prepared to experience some pain in the race, and it's part of the race. But yeah, I think usually the low points in the race in a long race for me are yeah, usually either it's the nutrition that I cannot get in, or or that makes my stomach just feel bad, or yeah, it's some physical like problems with with my legs, with my muscles that make me feel bad. And yeah, I think actually for most people, also just the mental it's it's just a mental challenge as well, like asking yourself, how long do I still have, you know, and why do I do this? And oh shouldn't I just stop? And you know, but and I would say it's certainly challenging, but I never really encounter like or usually I don't encounter like moments where just my mind tells me I should stop, or like you know, where I think about oh, I it could also stop and you know be more comfortable immediately. I only had like one or two races ever where I at some point I I asked myself why I am doing this. So I think I I think I have a pretty strong motivation why I run. And yeah, of course, if if I'm injured or if I feel that I get sick, then maybe I think about that stopping would be the the better option. But just because I'm bored or I don't want to run anymore or I feel not well in that moment, I usually don't feel it so much like on my like how I feel mentally. So I think that's maybe one of my strengths actually, because I'm not the strongest runner, certainly not. And I don't think I have the physical abilities to like just from my from the physical side to be like a top contender, but I think that especially on the longer, you know, the longer a race is, the more important it is what you do, like how your mind works and how you approach the race from a mental perspective. And I think I'm pretty good with just dealing with uncomfortable situations, yeah. And being as comfortable as I can be while actually feeling very uncomfortable. So I think that's a yeah, there's a good uh good characteristic to to have when you do these long, long races.

Lisa Danylchuk: 14:16

Yeah, I hear that as in my so like I'm a trauma therapist, right? And there's all these models of your nervous system, and one of them is called the window of tolerance. And so what you're describing to me sounds like a wide window of tolerance. It's like I'm in pain, but I can be comfortable here. I can ask the question, am I hurt or am I tired? And if if I'm tired, I can keep going if I want to, right? Like and the the decision or the option is there to stop, but it only it sounds like it only really enters your mind if you're like, am I really sick or am I hurting myself here? Like, I mean, that's always my limit, is like, I don't want to hurt myself, but I'm okay being like ouch. You know, like this is hurting as long as it's not like you're not gonna run after it.

Katharina Hartmuth: 14:58

And was what do you say? Like, I mean, for example, during the hard work this year, when I couldn't see, I was like, okay, now I'm concerned because you know, I don't want to risk my eye losing my eyesight while doing a race. So that was when I actually thought about well, might it be better to stop? And then I talked to the medics at the aid station, and they were like, no, you should be fine. It it feels worse than it is. So, and and they were right, and also because I experienced it last year and I experienced how quickly it well, well, it was going away after the race. The condition I was concerned, but I couldn't see anything, but somehow, yeah, I knew that I wasn't risking like my eyesight. So if that would have been the case, yeah, then of course I would have stopped.

Lisa Danylchuk: 15:44

Ocular edema, right? It's like it happens to all athletes, it's not an swelling. Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 15:50

Um, and I think, well, of course, it the movement and just like continuous like exercise for many, many hours aggravates it. But I think the yeah, certain conditions like the yeah, the humidity or altitude or the dust level in the in the air is just yeah, that can further just uh make it more severe.

Lisa Danylchuk: 16:15

So yeah. So how would you describe what keeps you going in those moments where it's uncomfortable, or there's a maybe there's a question of like, should I stop? And you get some reassurance, like, no, you're gonna be okay, you know, this is uncomfortable, but it's safe. What is it within you? How would you describe what keeps you moving forward?

Katharina Hartmuth: 16:40

I would say I just have like a really strong intrinsic motivation to run in the mountains. Yeah, and I think my well, the biggest key for success for me is the joy in what I'm doing. So like trail running for me, or just well, not just trail running, but being in the mountains, it's just the one thing that brings me the most joy in life. So if you would give me like a week where I have nothing to do, and you would tell me, hey, just go and you know, do whatever brings you joy, uh, I would just spend a week in the mountains and be there because it yeah, just really it fulfills me like in a way that that nothing else really can fulfill me. So it's yeah, it's just something that is so enjoyable for me. And of course, I mean, I'm speaking from the position of being a pro-athlete, so there is certainly some work involved too, and not every day is as joyful. There is some training sessions that are just hard, and there is some some days where I wake up and I'm like, oh, I really don't want to do this today. But I would say on average, and especially when I go to the mountains, like there is not it's almost never a question for me if I'm motivated or not. I I just am because it gives me so much in return. So and I yeah, I think that's just for me, that's that's such a strong driver. Um and for that's also something with the races. I always tell myself if one day I feel that I like the fun is not the high has not the highest priority anymore, but it's more about yeah, achieving a certain uh I don't know, like achieving a podium or just it's more about the performance and not so much about enjoying it. I think yeah, I always somewhat have that if that day would come, I would need to change something and I would need to maybe step back from racing and just focusing on on the running itself. I mean, I only had I only ever had one race where I felt a bit under pressure and where I felt oh now it's not so fun anymore. And it's I feel more like I have to I have to achieve something and I have to win this race and yeah, fulfill the expectations of others. And but that was the only race, and actually I realized really quickly during the race why I was not running well and why I was not feeling well, because yeah, I felt like I wasn't running for fun basically, but for something else. And yeah, luckily I managed to get around this and find my true motivation again. And yeah, I think also because this from like this perspective gives you a certain uh way of like being a bit more relaxed before a race as well. Yes, of course, there is sometimes you feel like, oh, I I yes, of course, I I am a pretty good runner, maybe people expect me to to perform well, but I think I can separate this from my very own motivation and my own goals. And I can accept that maybe people expect something, but it's not affecting me uh that much. So I think that's really helpful. Yeah, and also just I think running was like such an important tool for me to be like a stabilizer when my life was maybe not as stable, or there was many things that made me feeling not too well in general. And I think the running was always always something I could I could go back to and I could rely on. And just in the fact that it makes me feel good, yeah, and like happy and and fulfilled and balanced.

Lisa Danylchuk: 20:34

Yeah. There was a documentary that recently came out, I think in the last three weeks or months, um, on YouTube called Katarina, and it's all about your journey. And you talk about how running in the mountains has been healing for you. Do you feel like it's connected to that sense of motivation and joy you were just describing? What else is happening when you're in the mountains? How is it healing?

Katharina Hartmuth: 20:58

Yeah, totally. I would say healing mostly in the sense that it's something that, yeah, first of all, it brings me joy and uh makes me happy, but also I think one important thing is that I can just when I run in the mountains, especially when I'm on my own, I feel like I can just be myself. Like I feel free from any expectation or any uh yeah, anything that others want me to do or others think I should do. I'm just free to run and be outside and be myself. And I think that's that's really heal definitely healing, but I think it's also healing, or well, in a sense that it makes me more, maybe more stable and more self-confident, is when I set myself a challenge, for example, and then I just go and try to do it. Like, for example, when I started running in the night on my own, like that, I mean it's still to this day, it's always a challenge because I just prefer to run in the daylight. But it was a big challenge in the beginning, and I wasn't sure if I could do it on my own, but then I did it and I I could do it, and I was like, oh wow, yeah, that's that's pretty cool. Like, you know, I can just go out there and run on my own in the middle of the night, and you know, not many people would do that, and it's not about being better than somebody else, that definitely not, but it's more about okay, it gives me the confidence, you know, that I can do something on my own that is pretty challenging. And I realize that that helps a lot with other tasks in life that have nothing to do with running at all. But where I feel like, oh, maybe in the beginning I'm not sure if I can do something. But well, I mean, yeah, I I I already did it with running or with challenges uh in the mountains, and yeah, then sometimes yeah, you can take that and it helps you in the in everyday life as well. But I think yeah, it's just it's just I think especially this feeling of hey, I am a strong person after all, you know, and maybe not so much in the physical way, like of course I need to have strong legs to get up and down the mountains, but more on the mental side, you know, like I can do something that maybe is a bit scary in the beginning or where I have doubts and where I'm not sure if I can do it. But the cool thing with the mountains is I can just go there and try it. And if I don't, if I don't achieve my goal, nobody needs to know, and it's fine, and you know, I don't lose money or whatever. I'm just like, okay, I will try again next time. Yeah, um, so it's a really just peaceful playground, I would say. Um, and yeah, and of course, also, well, I I talk a lot about how I run on my own, and that's really something I I enjoy, but also through running, meeting other people, of course, along the way, be it when I'm at races or through my sponsors, or just through running in general, and I think that is also part of the healing because I think I've met so many people through running that have maybe not the same story, but their very own story, of course. But I think especially the ultra-running, it brings together many people who have something going on. Yeah, like I mean, maybe some have some sort of trauma they deal with, some have, I don't know, some some other issues, or yeah, maybe even mental health issues, and but the running or being outside in nature just just helps them as well. And I think I met way more people through running where I connected with them also over these things than I did outside of running. Um, also I think because running and being outside in the mountains is already a good connector, so you already have something, you know, yeah, uh that you both love, and then uh it's easier also to talk about other things. But yeah, I think also just meeting people along the way that have their own story, but yeah, also are connected through that passion. I think that's also part of healing in in some way.

Lisa Danylchuk: 25:09

Definitely having that sense of connection with other people.

Katharina Hartmuth: 25:12

Yeah, totally.

Lisa Danylchuk: 25:13

Yeah, I know in the documentary you mentioned uh like having the feeling having had trauma in your childhood growing up and like having the feeling of being on your own planet, like oh, like not feeling connected, right? Like I think most of us have felt that way to some degree in our lives, and like finding what you're describing, like the connection to yourself, the connection to joy, the lack of expectations of others, or the separating that, like letting it go, the connection to nature, the connection to the community. It's like connection, connection, connection, right? You're connecting on so many levels with yourself, with with other people in a genuine way, you know, shared interests and shared experience, and then also like with the planet itself underneath your feet and you know, through your eyes when you can see through them when you're beautiful views. So it sounds like the connection piece on those three levels is is a big part of what feels healing for you out there.

Katharina Hartmuth: 26:09

Oh, totally, yeah, absolutely. I think that for a long part of my life I was afraid of connections for well for I for different reasons, but I think just learning how to make good connections after all, that was a really important part for me. Uh to like feel better and then yeah, like progress on my own on my own journey, yeah, and also accepting that we are human beings, like there's a few exceptions, but most of us we need connections to like feel good and feel better and to just be like yeah, stable and and happy. And I think I I used to have that perspective because I had some really bad connections with people as well, is I just used to have that perspective, oh, I have to do everything on my own, and I better shouldn't trust anyone because it didn't go well in the path. Yeah, um, and I I think I was stuck in in that thinking for a really long time. Um and I well, in hindsight, I know it was of course a protection mechanism, but it just it took so long to get out of that and actually accept the fact that yeah, maybe that those connections were bad and that they were harmful, but that doesn't mean that there is no good connections, you know. And actually, I felt like so comfortable in that in being isolated or on my own that I didn't realize that that was not the best option. You know, I was like, okay, this is my comfort zone, but and I thought I was comfortable in that because I was protecting myself from more bad things happening to me through up through bad connections. But at the same time, I couldn't really see how actually having good connections would even make it better, you know. And and now in hindsight, now I left that comfort zone, which obviously is not a comfort zone when you isolate yourself.

Lisa Danylchuk: 28:11

Right.

Katharina Hartmuth: 28:12

But now I that I left it, and now that I think that well, these good connections that they actually make my life, you know, better and and and enrich my life. Now I see that it certainly, of course, was not a comfort zone. It was just a you know, I just had that protection shield around me.

Lisa Danylchuk: 28:31

So um the opposite of that wide window, right? It's like a very narrow.

Katharina Hartmuth: 28:35

Exactly. It's just it's really like, yeah, you're like so stuck. Um, but yeah, of course, I also see why it was so difficult to like you know, build up some some good connections. But I think, yeah, and come back to the running is that I think that helped me a lot. First of all, the running helped me to be a like a more confident person and to actually see that I still have some value as a human being, but also just meeting people along the way who shared that and who just I don't know, first of all, didn't judge me about what I was doing. Yeah, and then they were like, Well, we know that we are all a little bit crazy in what we are doing, but uh you know that's totally fine. And and who could also relate to why I I do that and why I feel like I have to do it to some degree. Yeah, um I think that was just yeah, that was really, really, really helpful. And I yeah, like my best, my best friends I've either met through running or through like yeah, just the trail world, or at least they are somehow connected to you know the mountains or whatever. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think yeah, in the end it's it's healing in many ways.

Lisa Danylchuk: 29:49

Yeah, there's a moment in the documentary where you say running certainly is not therapy. I need both, like running is therapeutic, but it's not. The only thing it makes me think. Do you follow on Instagram the account your boy Scott Jurick? Do you know what I'm talking about? Of course I do. Oh, I just have to like shout out to that person, whoever they are.

Katharina Hartmuth: 30:14

Whoever it is, it's the best account ever.

Lisa Danylchuk: 30:16

Mystery person. I actually thought it was Scott Jurik for the first year I followed, and then I was like, he's really funny. What's going on here? But they they posted something that said running is my therapy, says guy who could absolutely use real therapy.

Katharina Hartmuth: 30:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I I was the one person saying, Oh, running is my therapy a few years a few years ago, because you know it's so simple. It's very therapeutic. And I still agree, it's it's a great therapy in the sense that it can definitely for a certain amount of time make you feel better. Yeah. And it's certainly something that does you good. So it's certainly, well, I would say complementary to other things that you should do if actually you you know uh you think you need some therapy or you you want to work on things. Um yeah, I think for me, well, it's it's important to say that running is not therapy because I think that because I have been in therapy for quite a few years now, and I've experienced what therapy actually means and does, and how it works and how helpful it is. Running is great, but it's not well, it can never be a substitute for real therapy, because therapy means that there is another human being who talks to you, who asks you things, and that's just a different like process than oh, I go to the mountains and I run. Um, especially because people I think people who say running is not therapy, they are still in the phase that they are running away from things. Um, more that they actually sit down and look at things and like face them and try to work through things. So for me, well, running is really helpful, and I think running is really a good thing, like it's really complementary like to my therapy, with the the actual therapy. Yeah, because running gives me all this like positive vibes and positive feelings and the self-confidence and like this feeling of okay, I have something that makes my life a bit more stable and that makes me happy and so on. But then actually really working on things and and yeah, facing whatever trauma or issues or whatever, you need well, if you really want to do a therapy, you should do a therapy, which is seeing a therapist and talking about things. So it's a bit like easy saying, like, oh, I don't need therapy because I have running.

Lisa Danylchuk: 32:51

Right.

Katharina Hartmuth: 32:52

Well, certainly it's helpful. I mean, because especially because I've been that person who thought, oh, I don't need therapy. You know, I can solve things on my own. I can, I can, I'm good in pro at problem solving, and I've always somehow, you know, figured things out on my own. But only when I had therapy, and only after a few years of therapy, actually, I realized, oh no, there's things I could have never, never ever seen on my own or worked through on my own. Like, no, it's just impossible.

Lisa Danylchuk: 33:19

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 33:19

Um, and it's not because I was weak or like whatever. No, it's just it's just not possible.

Lisa Danylchuk: 33:26

Yeah. Well, even something like you mentioned building trust or feeling trust again. Like you can run around in the mountains largely by yourself because you know you're at the front of the pack and you're in a small race, but like you're not necessarily going to be confronted with like a relational moment in that way, right? Yes, there's community and there's support and there's friendship there, and maybe the trust comes about there. But when you really talk about wanting to focus on something traumatic or wanting to work through an issue and wanting to like rebuild a sense of trust, I think you know, psychotherapy is a great place for that. And different cultures have different ways to address, you know, supporting mental health and moving through mental health issues. And I think there's different paths up the mountain, if you will. But but it's great to be able to go, you know what? I actually want a person. I want to work with a person on this and get some help. And that can be vulnerable too, just like reaching out, trying to find someone. I know a lot of people say it feels like dating at first. You're like, how do I find a therapist that I actually like? You know, I didn't like this person's office and it smelled weird over here and whatever. You know, like I've literally gone back to a therapist because their office smelled weird personally. So like there's all kinds of reasons where you just need to be comfortable enough to start and and have a place where it's like, okay, I want to commit to this and figure some things out about myself and and hopefully really learn and grow in a deep and valuable way.

Katharina Hartmuth: 34:58

Yeah, and it's so hard because yeah, getting into therapy, I think just deciding that you actually want to see someone is that's probably the hardest step at all.

Lisa Danylchuk: 35:09

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 35:09

It feels like a weakness at first, and you feel like, oh, I'm for me, it always felt like oh, I'm sick, you know, I need to go. Especially like because my the place where I see my therapist, it's in a hospital. So I always felt like, oh, I have to go to the hospital, you know, something is wrong with me. And well, unfortunately, well, I I grew up in in Germany, and then now I live in Switzerland. And I can only speak for these countries, but it's it's still so stigmatized, like mental health in general. It's nobody really talks about it. And I'm like, oh guys, you know, we go to the doctor when we break our arm, we go to the doctor when we have stomach ache, and it's nothing like nothing is wrong with that. And we also should go to the doctor when we don't feel well, yeah. Um just in general, like there is nothing like physically broken, but if something like mentally is not not yeah, just not good, and but yeah, it's it's yeah, even for me, it it was so so hard in in the beginning, and and yeah, I I mean I I I was lucky because well, lucky in the sense that I had well the therapist I have now been working uh together with for like many many years, I met her by chance in an in an emergency room. Wow. So I was lucky that she was there and uh she was on duty on that day. Yeah, because that was just like by chance, it could have been anyone or from that hospital, and um it was after that incident, I saw her only like every couple months, and then I didn't see her for a couple years because I thought I was fine. Yeah, um, but I somehow at some point I realized I I was definitely not fine, and I I went back to see her because she she offered me that I could always you know contact her, and and I was just really lucky because I knew that it would be able like it could work with her, yeah. Um, and because I've had a different therapist like a decade ago, and that certainly didn't work out, so I I already was aware that you know it really needs to fit. And yeah, yeah, it so I was I was really lucky in that in that regard, but still I when I I went to see her again, like the first thing I said is I need help because I feel really bad now, but I don't want to do a therapy. Yeah, I was so scared of doing a therapy, and and I think after like only like a couple weeks or months, it was obvious that that was pretty much turning into a therapy.

Lisa Danylchuk: 37:42

Yeah, you're like, well, let's just talk and we'll see where it goes.

Katharina Hartmuth: 37:45

Exactly. And she told me later, like a few years later, she was like, Yeah, I already knew in that moment that you came back, that you know, this was very much the beginning of the therapy. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm definitely very much aware how difficult it is to just well, first of all, to to get to the point where you're like, okay, I think I try this, and then to actually find someone who is fitting. And then also, I think that's probably also even more a problem in the US, is actually be able to pay that person because it's really expensive. Yeah, and I'm really lucky because in Switzerland, actually, if you have at some point or had a diagnosis at some point from a doctor or whatever, um, it's pretty much all covered by the basic health insurance. Because otherwise, I I mean, I've been in therapy now for five years. I couldn't have done that because most of it I was a student and I wasn't really earning anything.

Lisa Danylchuk: 38:39

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 38:39

And it's really expensive. So I could have, I just couldn't have afforded, I couldn't afford it. Um, but because the um the health insurance is paying it, and I can afford it because basically I pay nothing, um, which is just a huge privilege, but it really shouldn't be.

Lisa Danylchuk: 38:56

I'm so glad you have that, and I wish ever I wish that for everyone around the world. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a problem in the US.

Katharina Hartmuth: 39:02

Yeah, it's it's really hard talking to friends. I mean, I also have a few quite a few friends in the US by now, and talking to them, I mean, not only about therapy, but in general, health-related issues. I mean, especially runners, you know, we are injured quite a bit, unfortunately, here and there. And wow, that's just I yeah, I I more and more realize how lucky I am to live in a place, you know, where there is an insurance that actually comes up to pay things, especially on the mental side, because I think that's that's probably something that in some countries it's just really hard to like get any support.

Lisa Danylchuk: 39:41

Yeah, and the mental is physical, like if you're feeling isolated and getting depressed, there there are actually physiological mechanisms behind that, you know what I mean? So it's like we're totally, I yeah, I totally know.

Katharina Hartmuth: 39:53

Like it affects you in a way that like people like I mean, just take something like a panic attack. Yeah. Panic attacks are really like common, like when people are mentally not feeling well, and like when you have a panic attack, you actually well, you feel like or you think you are about to die, and that's because your body reacts as if it was going to die, you know, you're hyperventilating, your heart rate is just going crazy. Um, you're yeah, you just like to think like, okay, this is it. Yeah. So, and and I mean also depression, like if if if there is somebody who has like whatever uh state of depression, like it makes you just feel sick on the physical side as well. Um, you can't get out of bed, you know. You are maybe you have like you sweat in the night, or um, you feel like some pain. I mean, people feel pain in their bones or whatever, but it's not like because they have a physical disease, so to say, but it's from the from their mental illness, or I mean, yeah, whatever affects them mentally.

Lisa Danylchuk: 41:01

So uh yeah, it's it's really sad that yeah, there is still like this taboo around it. Yeah. And there's even like social responses in our body, like when we have social connection, that looks different than when we're isolated or disconnected, right? So even when people are like, oh, well, I'm just gonna go talk to a person, you're like, well, that actually does impact your physiology. We had um, we've had Kathleen Kendall-Tackett, who's a uh psychologist on here a few times, she studies psychoneuroimmunology. And I'm like, God, if I had if I could have picked a major in college as psychoneuroimmunology, I totally would have. Like just to be able to study, like actually, we we have enough to know, you know, yeah, if you're shamed or isolated or heartbroken, like there's a physiological response to that. So, like, let's just let's get rid of that stigma that you're talking about. And just like if you broke your arm, you'd go to the doctor, you know, if you're depressed, go get some help. And there's lots of different pathways and options. And if you meet someone and their office just smells weird and you can't go back, it's free. Maybe keep going and just endure the others, but it's you know, it's like just having a vibe that you don't like the person, like find someone and and advocate. I mean, that can be hard when you're depressed, but I I really hope that people, anyone listening who's in that space of like wanting to reach out, like you can get some that first little push of momentum to just get started.

Katharina Hartmuth: 42:30

Yeah, and I mean, yeah, it's it's it's always hard to say, well, to convince people that it's worth it because you have to experience it. Like I can tell people as much as I want how much it helped me, you know, how how much better I feel now, how much more stable I feel in my life. But I already know that it will be really difficult for others who are at the different point to understand that because I would have like I people told me when I was at that point, and I was like, Yeah, that's maybe true for you, but it cannot be true for me. I feel so bad. And only through the experience I got to the point where I'm like, oh, they were, I think they were right. Um, it took me a few years, like in the beginning, after like one, two years in therapy, I was like, I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere, you know. And I I I was seeing my therapist actually two times a week. Uh so I saw her quite frequently, but I I had so many things like that I was carrying with me. Like it took a while, and actually in hindsight, I know I realized that it took me about two years to find that trust because actually trusting a person that was one of my main issues. And then as soon as I found that trust, suddenly I felt like, oh, now I can work on things, you know. Now I can open up all the boxes, and that was a really freeing experience. It was still really scary, and I I mean it's still today. I there is still boxes where I'm like, oh I can open them up now, but it's still really scary. Um but I think, and I don't know how much longer I will be in therapy, but probably one of the most important things for me about therapy is not only about you know working on things and understanding things better and stuff like that, but it's just that the person who is there for you, like and who accompanies you like for many years, and that allows you to trust and it's not yeah, of course, it is about what you talk and like you what you work on and all these issues, but I think this basic, like just that connection that we are again having the connections, just having a connection, a solid connection that is persistent. Yes, um, I think that is for me maybe the the biggest benefit of the therapy because that was something, and I think I also say that in the documentary, I only realized that doing therapy that it was the first time for me that there was a person that was just there, and I was not judging and not expecting anything, and just listening, and you know, of course, trying to help me and uh and work towards um a better version of myself, but yeah, who was just there and not leaving and is just there. I mean, I've just been to my therapist, see my therapist today, so like it's still an ongoing process, progress, uh, process, and um yeah, just having that connection and being able to trust that connection, I think that yeah, that might be one of the most valuable outcomes next to you know all the other stuff.

Lisa Danylchuk: 45:41

And you talk about persistence, I think that's such a great word, and it relates to trail running too, just having that persistence and a person who's with you in that persistence. Like my experience, I've I've been in therapy and a therapist, you know, for a long time. And I feel like someone who can be with you and you're like, oh, I just don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. And they could be like, yeah, that's really frustrating. Like, what can we do? Like, can we notice that feeling and what is it about? And, you know, explore it and see where where do you want to go? What would it look like to feel better? Like just having that persistence, because we would love for it to be this very linear, you know, exponential graph or where you're just like, I just keep getting better and better all the time. But but life is not like that. It's not like that though, at all, right? And even training and fitness aren't like that, it's all over the place and it's messy. And so to have a human there with you who's like, this is how it is, and I'm gonna be here with you and I'm gonna be persistent, and and I'm and we're working together and to have that support. I mean, there's so much even research. People talk about evidence-based practice in psychotherapy, which is important, and but the strongest evidence is for the relationship, right? And it's for the building of the trust and the social support and all the impact that has. And then the other tools, yes, are also important. And we find the ones that work at different times for different reasons, but like those don't work by themselves without just a relationship underneath, right? Without some sense of trust and connection. And you know, there's like AI therapy coming out. Some of it's really scary, awful things have happened, but it's also like, you know, okay, if we can use the tools in that way and people can access something rather than nothing, okay. But what like the human piece of this is so important, you know, even on a biological level. It's like interacting with a human. I I don't know. I don't know where tech will go, but I don't think I've seen the little robots that there is starting to like a home robot you can buy that like cleans up behind you. I'm like, I don't think the connection's gonna quite feel real in my lifetime. I don't know. I don't know.

Katharina Hartmuth: 47:50

We'll see. I I highly doubt it.

Lisa Danylchuk: 47:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 47:53

Yeah, I mean, maybe there is like robots who are good at you know, looking at x-rays or whatever. Uh I think yeah, they might be better at that. I I guess uh I listened to a podcast where uh there was a cancer expert and she was like, you know, if you have a CT scan or whatever, should give it to AI because they see the patterns much easier than we see them. So I that should be something maybe. But yeah, I think especially when it's about therapy and when it is so much about connections and the difficulties of connections, because that's what separates us from machines, basically, is that we well, they have all these, they only add the right the rational like thinking, they don't have emotions and feelings and whatever, and you know, like 80% of the time in therapy it's about emotions and feelings, yeah, and how to deal with them and um how to acknowledge them and how to yeah, learn from them. And I it was interesting in in the in this first two, those first two years of my therapy because I still had quite a few really deep blows in that time, and I think that was what made me doubt that the therapy was going to work. Yeah, but my therapist was always in these situations, she was like, Well, but you know, we can we can use this situation now to learn from it. Yeah, and that was really interesting because at first I was like, oh, okay, well, but I'm still like feeling really bad right now, you know. But it was then when I realized, okay, now I am in a bad situation, but I'm not on my own there. And there's already somebody who helps me and you know who guides me in a way and who I see like every week. Um, and who can just also ask the right questions because that's something that you know when I go talk to a friend, they are not that experienced. They maybe they don't ask the right questions, but then a therapist usually has some experience and they work with many patients, and I think that's a qu certainly a quality that my therapist has had that she uses to like just ask the same uh the ask the right questions where I feel like oh yeah, this is helpful now to think about this. Um and yet really just telling me, hey, this is a yeah, this is a bad phase now, but let's take it as like basically like a case study, yeah. To to see okay, what happened, uh how is it evolving, and then also well, of course, well, at some point it would get better, and I would get like you know over it, and and then she was like, Okay, now we can now we can reflect on it, you know, and now we can analyze it and and just yeah, it I think in hindsight I learned so much from these situations just because I immediately immediately had somebody working with me on these situations in it while you're in it, right?

Lisa Danylchuk: 50:53

You don't have to wait for it to get worse or build a relationship from scratch when you're in a low.

Katharina Hartmuth: 50:59

And also also because she was there and she saw how I was in that situation, you know, she also learned so much about me, how I was behaving, how I was feeling. Um, and I think it was even the the fact that she like somebody was seeing me, you know, like in that situation, and I felt like okay, I'm I might only see her once or twice a week, but there is still somebody who knows I am not doing well right now. And even if maybe I couldn't tell my friends or like like people don't at my workplace they didn't know, but I knew there was at least somebody who would know. There was no way around it, like there was no way hiding how I was like before when I just isolated myself, so I couldn't isolate myself anymore. And sometimes that was annoying because I just feel like oh, I have to see this thing, I can't avoid it. Yeah, yeah. I still have to go there and I I have to talk, I cannot sit there for an hour and like not saying anything. Um, and and just yeah, be like being seen in that situation and not not on my own with with things. I think maybe I didn't appreciate it that much in that moment, but in hindsight, I think it was like yeah, it was just so important for the healing and of course for the trust process. Yeah, so it it can be a really rocky road, and yeah, but as you say, it's like with training, I mean, like it's never just going up. There is always up and down and all around and loops, and yeah, yeah, and if it may be in in the in a race, but yeah, also just in general and in training. And I mean, I had it quite a few times in the last two weeks, two years that I thought, oh, I'm I'm I'm back on track, and boom, there was something else coming at me.

Lisa Danylchuk: 52:53

And I was like, Oh, you've talked about too how physical injury can can fall into this too, where you know, oh, I'm doing great, I'm feeling strong, I've got a wreath coming up, I feel so joyful when I'm in the mountains, I feel so confident in my body, and then I mean, you literally got hit by a car, right? But uh and then like hurt your knee and like have had to do PT and rehab and change course and just take care of your physic, very physical body, but there's mental health implications to that too, because if you love running and that's what you want to do when someone says you can't run for this long or you need to do this other thing to get there, like that can really impact your mentality, which then impacts how you feel in your body. And even, you know, if you're you might want to isolate, you might right so you could get depressed when something like that happens. So, how have you addressed those types of mindset challenges, those types of physical injuries and and the mental health impact?

Katharina Hartmuth: 53:52

That's a really good question because I hate I had a a few too many of them. Yeah, right. You got like a lot in a row. Yeah, I would say I had I really had a streak of bad luck, and I uh I say I had because of course I hope that it's over soon.

Lisa Danylchuk: 54:11

Knocking on wood over here with you.

Katharina Hartmuth: 54:13

Oh yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean it's it started with the car accident like almost two years ago, and I remember that in after that accident, like that I had a really bad time like dealing with that. Um, because I think also because of the fact that it was an accident, and I couldn't have done anything like yeah, different, like it I it was just some somebody else's fault, and I had to accept that. And that I think that was really, really hard. Um, I actually think in hindsight that because I was in such a bad mental state, like it it slowed down my healing process, like the healing of my knee, which I injured in that accident. But I also yeah, I worked continuously during that time with my therapist on how I feel, why I feel how I feel, and why it is so difficult, and yeah, what I can do, what I can try to make it better, and and work on things. And I think that was really, really important for me because what I didn't know at that point was what was yet to come. Yeah, more and so in hindsight, it was really good that I worked so much with her on that topic in that time because it got a bit better afterwards, and I could do my season, but at the end of the season, like the knee was always kind of an issue throughout the year, but and then by the end of the year we had to do surgery actually. Oh and then I was out also again for like two months after surgery, and and that was hard. And and then I came back from surgery, and then then I thought like okay, 2025 will be awesome, you know. I my knee is fixed, and I will just like crush it. And I I worked ready to go. I worked two hours if I come back, and like I had like three really good months of training, and in April I wanted to run my first race post-surgery, and I was like, I felt like I I don't know if I've ever felt that fit, and I was like, wow, this is really cool, you know, I've overcome everything. Well, I did my last long run just like as I usually do, like 10 days out of the from the race, and I just it went super well. I felt great, I was so hyped for the race, and then I slipped and just hit my knee on the trail, and I was like, okay, well, I just slipped, you know, how bad can it be? I will just continue to run. Um the run the rest of the run was fine, but then the next few days I really had some pain in my knee, and I was like, huh, this isn't good, you know. The race is only a week away, and I actually even went to the race, but I a day and I I rested, and a day before the race I tried to run and I couldn't run for like 10 seconds, and it was so painful. I was like, okay, I I guess I really just injured my knee really badly in another, like just crazy uh freak accident. And yeah, it turned out that I was uh I had like a bone bruise in the knee, so I was again off. I couldn't run for another six weeks, and it was in May, so that was really hard because the weather was so nice, you know. Everybody was like, Oh, let's do some something together. I was like, Oh, I shouldn't move because I'm injured again, and that was just such a bummer once more because I'm like, I thought I was, you know, oh had overcome it, and and then there was that, and then afterwards, I just had like like four weeks to get ready for hard rock, which was really not ideal.

Lisa Danylchuk: 57:43

Yeah, I I mean, like I said, we were there at Hard Rock, I would have never guessed or known. I mean, I didn't really know until the documentary how many injuries you had sustained. I mean, you just look so strong, and anyone, you know, like that race is so obviously physically challenging that I was like, oh my goodness, she like you must have done a lot of physical therapy.

Katharina Hartmuth: 58:08

I do a lot of cross-training actually. Uh, I think because I come from triathlon, so I'm used to just you know jump to into the pool when I cannot run. And yeah, well, bone bruises are really not not no fun, but at least you can do non-weight bearing exercise. So I could get back to my like to some cycling after a couple weeks, yeah, which I think was helpful. Yeah, um, but yeah, of course I did a lot of extra stuff, you know. I rested a lot, I saw my physio, I did some electrotherapy, I tried to take all the important supplements and you know, check that my my diet is absolutely on point and all these little things. And yeah, I think also just having already that good base from the training after the surgery and the comeback. Yeah, and the funny well, the interesting thing was that when I had that injury, I already felt such a difference to the year before where I was very frustrated. Um yeah, because I was like suddenly I could deal with it in a in a in a different way. And I was like, okay, I'm out for a while, but you know, this is not the end of the world. I can still move. I will be back running, and I actually will be back running in like two months. Um, I can still do a race this year, I can still go do hard work. Because of course I was like, oh, I I cannot miss hard work. You know, out of any race, it's it's it really shouldn't be hard work, yeah. Especially because you never know when you get in again. Um so I really was like, oh, I and it was so tight, and nobody really knew if it the time would be enough to get back. Um so yeah, but it was great to see that from a mental perspective, I was much more at ease and much more confident in my abilities. And actually, I think that that was certainly helpful in the healing process. Like, yeah, I mean it was tight, but it worked out, so actually, yeah. Bone healed pretty well. Um, yeah, and then just recently, I mean, I did UTMB, which was my my second race this year, which was really cool. And then the day after UTMB, I was like, I think I I am actually finally. I'm done with all of these things, and then two days later I had this pain in my foot developing, and I was like, are we out of the way? Whatever it is, are you fucking serious? Like what is going on? And um, and now I had these struggles with my foot for like almost two months, and yeah, it's uh this is actually the first time that I have an injury which is not related to an accident. So I know that there was a lot of bad luck and bad coincidence, but and now it's like now I still don't know what the problem was. Maybe it was with my with my shoe, or maybe it was that I twisted my ankle and I didn't realize in the race, something like that. But again, now I now especially because it's it's almost now the longest injury I've had in the last two years, but again, I I feel like how far I come on dealing with it on the mental side. I mean, of course, I still really much would prefer to be able to run. I mean, actually, there is a race that I would have I would have run that race right now as we speak uh on Wonderful Grand Canaria. Um it should have been the last race of my season, but I also had to cancel it. Um, also because maybe I would have been able to run, but I certainly didn't want to risk you know my next season. Because I'm like I just want to finally you know get healthy again, like fully healthy, and just able to run because I think the days before I was like really good in avoiding injuries, and you know, I do a lot of strength training and all that stuff that is not fun at all, but you know, you should do it, and it's really helpful. And and now I just had two years where there was many like freak things happening and and accidents and and bad stuff, and yes, it's really frustrating and uh and uh disappointing, but at the same time, I think well, I mean I could have done with like one or two injuries less, but I also know that maybe because it was so much, I also just had to learn how to deal with it in a good way and how to overcome things. And I think now I'm just I think, or hopefully for the future, I will be much better with dealing with these situations and overcoming these situations. And I think I just learned a lot about myself, but also again, how why do I run? Why is it so important for me? And I think I mainly learned to just relax. And yes, waiting is hard. I'm not the most patient person. Um, but I even learned that. I I think I learned to be patient and actually tell myself, okay, I'm you know, I'm not sitting in a wheelchair, I'm not having a disease that is uncurable, whatever. Yes, I have a stupid injury, and yes, it may take a few more weeks or months to heal, but there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to do what I love afterwards.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:03:19

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:03:20

So yes, right now maybe I need to focus on other things, and I yeah, but realizing hey, I I will get there again, and also it's there is still I'm still here, you know, I still have other things that excite me. There is still amazing people that surround me, and and I'm still the same person with the same value. I don't have to, I'm not. I just talked about it's funny because I just told my therapist about it today. I was like, I still feel like I am an athlete and I am a runner, even though I'm not running maybe because whatever injury, but I'm I'm still that confident to say, hey, yes, I am that person and it it is my identity and I'm worth it, but I even though I cannot show that right now that you know I can run well or I cannot you know run a race or whatever, and I'm not doubting myself, and yeah, I think that's already quite an achievement because yeah, a few years ago, if I would have whatever small injury or nickel, that was a crisis.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:04:29

Yes, yeah, so your response is different. I hear acceptance in that, I hear flexibility, right? Patience, connection with people, like talking to yourself about it, like keeping you the confidence of like this is still who I am, even though I'm working on it right now, right? I'm working with my body, but that doesn't shake me up in the same way that maybe it used to.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:04:53

Yeah, and also not like punishing myself for you know not being able to do something because I don't know why, but we human beings usually are pretty good at like being very like kind to others, but not kind to ourselves. Yeah, and I think I was for a really long time I was pretty good at really not being kind to myself, and that's something I just I think learned in the last year, maybe that yeah, I really I can be kind to myself now, and I'm not fighting myself because something is not working, but I'm working with myself, you know, to like deal with the situation. Maybe there are some things I cannot change right now, but what what benefit do I have if I additionally also make myself feel bad, you know, and drag myself further down? I mean, there is no benefit at all. Like I will only it will only make me feel worse.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:05:54

Yeah. So why waste maybe make your physical recovery actually longer too, right? Yeah, probably, yeah. Yeah, totally.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:06:03

And why waste time, lifetime with just feeling bad and making myself even feel worse uh for something that well just happened, and I can there's uh it's possible for me to change anything right now about you know if I can run or not, but I can very much affect like how I think about it, how I deal with things, how and especially how I think about myself, and I can choose if I am like punishing myself or if I'm kind to myself and like you know, just actually even like feeling sorry for myself. I think like many people cannot really feel like sad and and feel like okay, that that's okay, but it it's more like oh that's a really uncomfortable feeling, and I don't want to feel like that, and uh, it makes me feel weak and blah blah blah. And I think just being able to say, hey, I'm I'm really sorry that this happened. Yeah, um but I'm also confident that I can get through this, and uh yeah, I think that's just something yeah, that that's certainly not easy to learn, depending on where you you know you come from and where you start. But now I am now that I actually managed to do that, I see how valuable it is and how much easier it makes these situations that are of course still hard, but yeah, they don't break me anymore. So yeah, and that's yeah, I mean there will there will always be situations like these, and it's life, right?

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:07:43

It's like yeah, exactly. Problem solving, problem solving, detour, detour, problem solving. Yes, pivot here, pivot there. Every once in a while, woohoo. Yeah, yeah. What would you say to someone who's listening who wants to do something really challenging? It doesn't have to be running, but who's maybe on the edge of like, oh, I really want to do this hard thing, and I don't know.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:08:12

Just do it. Yeah, so just try, right? Well, just try and well, depending on what it is, but usually ask yourself what could possibly go wrong. Like what is that well, think about what is the worst case scenario, and then think about that, and then you're like, okay, maybe maybe it's actually not well, maybe if that would happen, yeah, that wouldn't be that bad. You know, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I yeah, like I wouldn't get sick or I couldn't die or whatever. Like I'm like, okay, if if that is not like the the worst, well, okay, we can always die and always get sick, but if you know, if that's not the the worst possible thing, but if if it's more like uh oh, maybe I I try something and I cannot do it. But is that like is that actually that bad? Yeah, maybe maybe then you're like, okay, maybe well, not maybe, but surely you will learn a lot about yourself, and then maybe you will try it again or you will not. But I mean, as long as yeah, nobody is like uh no other people are involved that you could harm, for example, or as long as you can't really harm yourself with that, then just do it, and yeah, I mean best case it works, it makes you happy, and and and worst case, maybe it doesn't make you happy, then you don't try it again. Yeah, but really I often had that situation that I was like, okay, I really am scared to try something, okay. Now I think about what's the worst thing that can possibly happen, or what what is the thing that makes it scary and that I am afraid of. Yes. And then really think about it, okay, uh, and why is that? And and and then usually you get to the point where you're like, okay, this is really stupid. It's just I just try to find excuses somehow to not do something that is maybe challenging, or maybe where I just I mean, many people don't try things because they are not sure that they can succeed.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:10:17

Yes.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:10:17

Um which then raises the c raises the question, why do we have to succeed? Why can we not try something and maybe it doesn't work? Um why do I have to be sure that something works that to actually get something? And I mean, yeah, it's the same thing with with running, with races. I mean, I've had races like Tour de Jean last year where I wasn't sure if I could finish it. I wasn't. Um and of course I was a bit scared of you know just having to stop and everybody else finishes it. And I feel like this idiot who just couldn't finish it, but I was like, okay, this is comparatively like, yeah, like how how bad can it be? Um, I mean, I will not like I will hopefully not not die doing it, and there will be no consequences when I cannot finish it. And I mean, yeah, maybe and and also like things like the therapy in the beginning. I was like, I don't know if I will get anywhere, but there's only so many things that could happen that are really bad, so why not just try it? And yeah, I think that's because the the problem is if we are if there is always an excuse in our head, or always something that keeps us from doing it, like we will always find something, we will always find the fear or like you know, something that keeps us, or something where we're like, yeah, we're not sure if we want to do that, so maybe we shouldn't do it. Yeah, but if we never try it, then we will never know that there may be something good waiting for us, and usually it is the scary things that if we overcome our fear will actually help us or like reward us with something positive.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:12:07

Or I mean you mentioned Tour de Jean, like you won that race. You're like, Oh, I'm not sure if I can do it. You're like, first place. Yeah, but but it's true. I it doesn't have to be about that. Like, I don't want to over exactly, but no, I think like it's an example of it's such a great example of not knowing and then finding out. And and maybe other races you found out, oh, I'm I gotta pull out of this race, but then you learn something, or then you have some sort of experience around it. Like we don't always have we don't have control, right, over everything, but the willingness to go, I don't know if I can do this. Maybe I'm gonna be that person freezing on a bench waiting for a ride, you know, and and what are people gonna think of me? And then you're like, oh, I guess that's actually okay. And then giving yourself that permission allows you to go and and try. And uh, and you know, I was celebrating with you, seeing it cross that finish line, right?

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:13:07

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, race is I would say it's relatively safe because yeah, what what can happen? I mean, worst case you disappoint yourself, and then that's maybe something that's worth working on, such that you will not have that feeling in the future anymore. Um, yes, of course, there's other things in life that that are maybe a bit more risky, or where you're like, oh, I really don't know if I should do it. And like, well, I have a I I experienced it a few times in in recent months with friends who are just like, I'm really not happy, you know, in my job and and whatever, but I I'm also like I'm scared, you know, trying something new. And I'm like, yeah, but you know, you will never know if there wasn't if there was something like way better waiting for you, but you were afraid, and then you were just stuck in your job that didn't make you happy, happy forever. And I mean, even for me now, I I've been working as a scientist for a few years, and um, but I felt more and more that I really wanted to just focus on one thing and just focus on running. And now next year I will actually stop working as a scientist for a while and only focus on on the running. And yeah, that's scary. And it took me a while to actually be like, okay, I will just try that, because you know, that's it's also like especially people in Switzerland, they will come up and they were like, What you are like a professional runner? Is that even a job, you know? Yeah, what and what happens if you injure yourself, blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah, I I know, and and maybe it it will not work out. It there is a high chance that it also does not work out, but I still want to try it. And I mean, yeah, worst case. I will just again, there is the worst case. So, what is the worst case that happens? Worst case that happens is it might not work. But I have uh my education, I have my degree at the university. I guess I would have just have to go back and do another like job as a scientist. Um and that's fine too, but if I don't try it now, I will probably never never try it because you know, especially with running, like at some point you I'm I I will be too old. And um now is the point, like, yeah, now is the time to just risk something, but you know, I'm not putting myself like in danger. It's just yeah, okay, I try something, I don't know if it works out, it's a bit scary, but yeah, maybe yeah, I I will never know if if if I don't try.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:15:41

I think that's such an important piece.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:15:42

Maybe that's like the essence, yeah.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:15:44

The internal question of like, well, if you want it, if there's something in you that's and I always say with these types of runs, like you gotta want it. There's gotta be something in you that wants it. Right, otherwise you're gonna question, you're gonna be like, why am I doing this? There's no reason. Bye, I'm done. Right. And so same thing with transitioning in your career, like there's something in you that wants it. And so listening to that and being willing to lean in that direction, whatever that looks like, right? And for you, that's like, okay, next year I'm gonna go out and just just focus on running. I remember actually, I I think this is the first time I met you. Um, it was 2024, the depletion mile, where the people who run all the volunteers run a mile the morning after it's like another crazy layer of of ultra running. My goal as a postpartum mom was to go run the depletion mile and not be the last person. I think I was like the third to last person. I celebrated, I did like a nine-minute mile at 10,000 feet or 9,000 feet. I was so happy. Thank you, Katarina. Thank you. But we were chatting before I think it was before with you and Howie just hanging out and you're like, oh yeah, well, I gotta catch my flight, gotta get back. And I was like, Yeah, I gotta get back to work. I'm like, You you just turned hard work and you're like, no, I gotta get back to work tomorrow morning. I'm like, and now you're gonna fly home to Switzerland on a long flight after running a hundred plus miles and go to work in the morning. Like, I'm tired. I was just cheering and ran one mile and like I'm not ready to go back to work yet. And I was just like, wow, that is next level. So wow. And also, like, you I'm glad that you're gonna have more space for rest because put your legs up the wall, you know, like have some offer.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:17:27

I must admit, that was really not the best idea I've ever had.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:17:32

And there before where there's something I love, and I'm just like, this is gonna be a red eye into a six-year meeting, and you just do it, and it's not it's not the best for our bodies, like we know that, but sometimes you just love something so much you take the you take the crappy flight for it.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:17:47

Totally. I mean, yeah, I've I've learned from that year, and so this year I I took a few a couple more days in to wind down after the race. And actually, I think my recovery was so much better this year. Yeah. Um we're all learning from that.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:18:01

We're all listening to learning. I know. I've it took me like decades to be like, uh put a day in between when you return home, when you start work. Really do it, even if you're not running, just give yourself a minute, it's okay.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:18:14

Yeah, I I think I'm so used because I've done this like two jobs almost. I've done it for for quite a few years now, and I've you know, in the meantime, I finished my PhD. So I had some really like stressful times. And as I I remember when I finished my PhD in the last few weeks, I was training for Worlds, which was immediately after I handed my in my thesis. So, like I think in general, I'm just so used to have like a schedule that is just full and where there is no breaks and what like whatever. And I yeah, I I can I can do that for a certain time, but I realized, yeah, in the last two years more and more that I'm like, huh. Well, first of all, I think I don't have to do it, you know. I I'm in the privileged position now with with the thought that I can work less and afford it, um, which is really cool. And but also like experiencing, hey, actually it's quite nice to have some breaks, yeah. And to have those time slots in the day where I just do well, where neither work nor train nor do anything that is related to training, yeah, but where I just you know do something else, like meet friends, uh, where I read, where I just do nothing. Yeah, um, I think I was always a bit scared of these like like yeah, of this uh that free time basically. And now experiencing, hey, that can actually be something really nice, and and of course it's like helping also with recovery, as you say. I mean, when I stop working at the office, I I will not train necessarily more, but I will risk more, and hopefully I will recover better and um hopefully just be more balanced, and I'm sure that that will help me as an athlete to to grow and to improve. Um but yeah, it's I think because I was always used to that, and I never thought about hey, it would be actually nice, you know, have a weekend where I don't work, um and mental space too, or just being able to sleep in or like to not have an alarm clock every morning and um get that one more hour of sleep per night, which is really like a huge benefit. Um, yeah, so and and of course, I mean I will not get rich just by by running only. I mean, there is well, I'm one of the few lucky people who can make this their job. Um, and yes, I give up another job with another income to pursue the uh the running, but then I'm like, okay, maybe I earn less, but I actually gain so much. Like I I get all this time and uh space, and I just like slowing down a little bit and just having these moments where I'm just like okay, I don't need to do anything right now, and I'm in no rush. I think in general that's just also really just de-stressing, which can only be healthy.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:21:27

So I often ask people at the end, like what brings you joy? We know running brings you joy. So what brings you ease?

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:21:34

I have to say, I uh even when I rest and not run, whatever, I really just like to be in nature. Yeah, I think that really like nature has something really calming to me. And I'm here when I'm in Switzerland, of course, it's yeah, the mountains are just so beautiful, and I really enjoy being in the mountains. And but I even more one reason why I really like being in Silverton around the hard rock course is that there it's like it's it's remote, there's very few people, yeah, and you are not only in nature, but usually you are in nature on your own, you don't have self service, you just you can't you couldn't even look at your phone because you can't use it, so yeah, but that's really freeing, and actually that in that moment you're like, okay, I'm just existing now, and I can just sit down and look around, and it's really beautiful here. And I think that's for me to relax. I think I I actually would say I need to be in nature. Like for me, it doesn't work well when I'm inside. Yeah, of course I can lay in bed and I can I mean I I love reading, so I I I can lay in bed, have a nice book, and that's also that is also not bad, but I think to actually really unwind and come down, I think yeah, nature is just that's what helps me. Yeah, because there's still like some energy and there's still something around you, and maybe you maybe there's some birds you can hear, or like the wind, and whatever, and it's just I feel like in nature I never I've had many phases in life where I felt really lonely, but I never felt lonely in nature. Yes, I think that's just again connection, but not a human connection, but just the connection to whatever is around you. Yeah, I think that is something that uh yeah, I really like, and that is really just helpful and relaxing.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:23:32

Yeah, I totally feel that too. And yeah, you're connecting with the mountains when you're out there, you're connecting with the nature when you're resting, and just being with yourself, and it sounds like you're moving into a different season, it's gonna be a little bit of a different way, a little more space. Yeah, so I'm excited for that. And I wish you well with your foot and working through all of that. And how can people connect with you if they want to follow your journey?

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:24:00

I think the easiest is if people follow me on Instagram. Okay. So just Google my name and you will find my handle.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:24:08

Yeah.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:24:08

And yeah, I think that that's the easiest. Um, because I'm not like I'm not active on Facebook anymore. Um, so yeah, Instagram is the way to connect. And I I try to share a bit of my journey there. Usually not right now, because when I do my off-season, I usually also do like an off-season on social media. So I may not post anything in November, but I will be back there as soon as I resume um my preparation for the next season. And yeah, if you are a runner or triathlete or whatever and you're interested in my training, you can also have a look at Strava. Um I have a public profile there, and yeah, if some people want some motivation or inspiration or just are curious what I do when I'm not injured. Yes, or maybe even when I'm injured, because then I still, yeah, and learning there too. I share not all my sessions, but I would say like 90% of my sessions.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:25:06

Nice. Anything you're willing to share about what your plans are for next year? Will we see you at Hard Rock?

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:25:12

Well, I mean, I would love to be back, of course. My name is in the lottery, but uh yeah, it's hard rock, and I've been lucky enough to be picked by the race director the last few years, which of course will not happen again. So now I need to get into the lottery, and yeah, well, of course, I don't know if that can happen. I mean, I am a three-time finisher, so I have uh slightly higher chances than uh than other people, but yeah, I mean I will be there. Yes, I cannot not be there, but I'm well, yeah, I don't know yet if I I will be able to run, but yeah, I want to start my next season actually uh with the Transgrand Canaria.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:25:52

Okay.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:25:52

Grand Canaria Island at the beginning of March. And then I will in the spring, I will most likely do a personal project. It's not fixed yet, which is why I will not share plans just yet. But by the end of the year, I I should uh should be able to talk about it. And yeah, then I will yeah, spend a few weeks in the US and hopefully race there. If I don't raise hard work, then I raise something else. Yeah, and then I will go back, and actually, my main goal for next year is to run a tour de jour again. Nice uh in September, because last year it was about finishing, and now I know I can do that.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:26:30

Yes.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:26:30

So now I set myself a different challenge.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:26:33

Yes, I love it.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:26:35

I want to go back there and and then I will maybe do another race in November because UTMB. If I if you want to run UTMB again at some point, then you know, with the qualification, you need to run a race in their series. So maybe I do a late race um just to have the qualifier for the next year. But um, yeah, that's that's not fixed yet either. But but yeah, Tor is is definitely the big goal next year.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:27:00

Yeah, well, look for me with like uh two, I guess she'll be three at that point, three-year-old in my arms. So I promise Alex. If you hear that that's me. No, no, it's like at the end of your documentary. You can see me and my daughter on the sidelines, and then you hear me go, ooh, I was like, Oh, that's awesome.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:27:19

So now I have to re-watch it.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:27:21

We're just oh no, no, it's just a little corner of my shirt. You're not even gonna probably see it. But but I just want to like celebrate you. I so admire you as an athlete and a person. Thank you for sharing everything you shared here today and for the documentary, just being honest about your experience and the healing that's come through running and therapy and other pathways, nature. I'm I think you know, other people just benefit from hearing that and just yeah, so admire all of that about you. Thank you.

Katharina Hartmuth: 1:27:49

Thank you so much. It was a great pleasure to not only talk about running, but also a bit about you know mental health and and my journey. Yeah, it was it was really nice.

Lisa Danylchuk: 1:27:59

Yeah, we're all we're all here rooting for you. Thank you. Thank you, Katharina. Thank you so much for listening. Now, I'd really love to hear from you. What resonated with you in this episode and what's on your mind and in your heart as we bring this conversation to a close? Email me at info at how we can heal.com or share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments on Instagram, or you'll find me at how we can heal. Don't forget to go to howwecanheal.com to sign up for email updates as well. You'll also find additional training, tons of free resources, and the full transcript of each and every show. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe and keep sharing the shows you love the most with all of your friends. Visit how we can heal.com forward slash podcast to share your thoughts and ideas for the show. I always, always love hearing from you. Before we wrap up for today, I want to be super clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions. It's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today, everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and taking the fur babies out while I record. Last and never least, I'd like to give a special shout out to my big brother Matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here.